Tip-tilt adaptive optics needed

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Tip-tilt adaptive optics needed

Postby Capeorion » Sun Nov 05, 2017 2:27 pm

Your excellent cameras would benefit from a tip-tilt adaptive optics system. There are essentially few AO systems available to the amateur astronomer that are affordable. A well executed system utilizing ZWO cameras are a natural next step for your product line and will greatly expand the company’s market share. Please give this idea serious consideration.
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Re: Tip-tilt adaptive optics needed

Postby riklaunim » Sun Nov 05, 2017 6:35 pm

For DS imaging or do you want one for Solar System imaging?

I'm afraid that patents and general knowledge of companies doing AO maybe something that will make it really hard for others to overcome. Orion had some AO but right now it looks like they dropped those products, while SBIG or SX systems start at 1000-1500 EUR.
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Re: Tip-tilt adaptive optics needed

Postby Capeorion » Mon Nov 06, 2017 12:12 am

riklaunim wrote:For DS imaging or do you want one for Solar System imaging?

Actually both DS and Solar system would benefit [/color] as the system reduces the effects of atomspheric seeing. It could turn a seeing night of 3 , which is just good to a seeing night of 5 , which is excellent.

I'm afraid that patents and general knowledge of companies doing AO maybe something that will make it really hard for others to overcome. Orion had some AO but right now it looks like they dropped those products, while SBIG or SX systems start at 1000-1500 EUR.



I am not aware of any intellectual property barriers regarding AO as most of the early research and development was funded by the US government and conducted at public universities. Regardless, it makes no sense to reinvent the wheel. The shortest path to success would be to work with SBIG ( diffraction limited.com) and develop an adapter that would retrofit their existing product offerings to work with the ZWO cameras. That way everyone wins.
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Re: Tip-tilt adaptive optics needed

Postby Benni » Thu May 17, 2018 6:35 pm

I have an AO and have written here about the effects that I see

viewtopic.php?f=27&t=7167#p17245

ZWO sensors allow short exposures that render mount errors are not observable.

On the other hand the current ao setups for the amateur are not fast enough to remove seiing effects.
My ao from starlight xpress only corrects at around 2.5 hz, which is not fast enough for seeing.

Sbig claims it can correct 10 hz http://diffractionlimited.com/product/ao-8a/
That may be enough to correct seeing.

But I wonder: I have the lodestar guider which is known to be very sensitive... And I rarely find a guide star where I can do exposures below 0,5 s. Sometimes there are guidestars with 0,1 s. but for 10 hz correction, with all that latency stuff from Software and Laptop and cables, I think you need a software and and a guiding cam and a hardware connection that simply does not exist yet....

Or does sbig have a much faster and much more sensitive guider cam than all the other competitors around?
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Re: Tip-tilt adaptive optics needed

Postby Sean.Wang » Fri May 18, 2018 5:53 am

Hi there
Thank you very much for telling us your willings. AO system is very cool staff, we will consider it in the further.
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Re: Tip-tilt adaptive optics needed

Postby Benni » Sat May 19, 2018 4:12 pm

As to the claims from sbig with 10 hz....

http://diffractionlimited.com/product/ao-x/

Well, they say:
For STX cameras, the AO-X stacks on top of the FW7-STX and STX Guider

And what does the STX guider specification say:

http://diffractionlimited.com/product/stx-guider/

Full Frame Download: 0.13 sec

Additionally, their guider is an old KAI-0340 ccd chip from Kodak.... Quantum efficiency is claimed to be 55.... That's lower than my old lodestar which has 65 or so...

With that you are basically guaranteed to need exposures longer than 1s... Maybe some rare times you will get a guidestar with 0,5s exposure time...
and to that come 0,13 sec download time, and then maybe 0,1sec computing time and sending the correction... That is 0,73 sec...

And there goes sbig's nonsensical 10hz claim....

If one wanted to do this, then one probably would need to have usb-c and a camera firmware that can download only a small section of the image if needed. Or perhaps even to do the entire guiding in the ao. That is, the laptop is only used to set the parameters, manually select the guidestar, observing whether guiding works, but everything else (the real guiding process) works internaly in the ao...

This may remove the frame download and windows/linux guiding software bottleneck...

If the guiding chip is then a sensitive cmos, then one probably could really talk about more than 5hz if the ao can move the glass really fast....
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Re: Tip-tilt adaptive optics needed

Postby Sean.Wang » Mon May 21, 2018 3:11 pm

We will do some research on it. It's a really good staff.
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Re: Tip-tilt adaptive optics needed

Postby Benni » Tue May 22, 2018 1:22 am

I have re read the manual from my sx ao. It says
"the ao is capable to make corrections in a few milliseconds but in reality it deoends on the guiding camera".. Some vendors even claim 5ms...

I think I will now try to use subframes and st4 cables instead of pulesguiding via ascom and see whether this helps... But yeah I think it seems laptop, usb, and camera and software is making it slow, not the ao itself...
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Re: Tip-tilt adaptive optics needed

Postby Sean.Wang » Tue May 22, 2018 8:38 am

Yap. we will figure it out in the further.
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Re: Tip-tilt adaptive optics needed

Postby Benni » Tue May 22, 2018 10:29 am

for the record here is the ao from starlight xpress that I have

https://www.sxccd.com/sxv-ao-lf

one can also buy it without the sx off axis guider if one already has one

https://optcorp.com/products/starlight- ... s-with-usb

If somebody wants such a system to use it with a zwo camera then the starlight xpress ao should work without problems. It just adds 36mm to the backfocus.

When computing the correct distance, one must bear in mind that it has a 13mm thick glass. That means one must subtract 13/3mm from the mechanical length in order to compute the correct distance between a reducer or flattener... Filters and the protective glass of the zwo camera usually add 2mm glass for each where one has to subtract 1/3 of the thickness each. So of one has a filter wheel and this ao and a zwo camera, then one has to subtract 5.6mm from the mechanical distance of the ao....
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